1 00:00:32,510 --> 00:00:34,903 Ghislaine, do you have anything to say 2 00:00:34,904 --> 00:00:39,255 about the allegations... Prince Andrew? 3 00:00:39,256 --> 00:00:40,909 Have you spoken to Prince Andrew? 4 00:00:40,910 --> 00:00:42,432 - Happy New Year. - Happy New Year. 5 00:00:42,433 --> 00:00:44,347 Have you spoken to Prince Andrew? 6 00:00:44,348 --> 00:00:46,045 I made a statement. Thank you. 7 00:00:46,046 --> 00:00:48,308 Have you... 8 00:00:51,268 --> 00:00:54,923 Today we announce charges against Ghislaine Maxwell 9 00:00:54,924 --> 00:00:56,881 for helping Jeffrey Epstein 10 00:00:56,882 --> 00:01:02,583 sexually exploit and abuse multiple minor girls 11 00:01:02,584 --> 00:01:07,283 who were as young as 14 years old. 12 00:01:07,284 --> 00:01:10,852 We've been discretely keeping tabs on Maxwell's whereabouts. 13 00:01:10,853 --> 00:01:13,550 She was hiding out in a remote part of New Hampshire. 14 00:01:13,551 --> 00:01:18,120 FBI agents moved in, arriving in about a dozen cars, 15 00:01:18,121 --> 00:01:19,991 a plane flying above to make sure 16 00:01:19,992 --> 00:01:24,692 the only way she left was in handcuffs. 17 00:01:24,693 --> 00:01:26,433 Who is this Ghee-layne Maxwell? 18 00:01:26,434 --> 00:01:28,696 - Jizayne Maxwell. - Gheelin Maxwell. 19 00:01:28,697 --> 00:01:30,263 Guhleen Mask-- Maxwell. 20 00:01:30,264 --> 00:01:31,525 Gissmell-- Ghiz-layne. 21 00:01:31,526 --> 00:01:34,919 I think it's, um... Ghee-layne. 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,357 What do we know about her and that relationship? 23 00:01:37,358 --> 00:01:39,098 Ghislaine Maxwell has been described 24 00:01:39,099 --> 00:01:42,101 as Epstein's ex-girlfriend and assistant. 25 00:01:42,102 --> 00:01:44,407 Identified by multiple Epstein accusers 26 00:01:44,408 --> 00:01:46,888 as being his primary co-conspirator. 27 00:01:46,889 --> 00:01:49,369 His best friend, according to Epstein, 28 00:01:49,370 --> 00:01:51,327 and a socialite who helped connect him 29 00:01:51,328 --> 00:01:52,937 with the wealthy and famous. 30 00:01:55,202 --> 00:01:57,377 Rich and powerful individuals, 31 00:01:57,378 --> 00:02:00,380 including politicians, including celebrities, 32 00:02:00,381 --> 00:02:04,732 are nervous about what Ghislaine Maxwell may say. 33 00:02:04,733 --> 00:02:06,864 I just wish her well, frankly. 34 00:02:06,865 --> 00:02:11,130 I've met her numerous times over the years. 35 00:02:11,131 --> 00:02:13,044 Ghislaine Maxwell will have a lot of time 36 00:02:13,045 --> 00:02:15,525 to think about it in her jail cell. 37 00:02:15,526 --> 00:02:19,355 Trial isn't set to begin until July of next year. 38 00:02:21,228 --> 00:02:23,533 People were beguiled by Ghislaine. 39 00:02:23,534 --> 00:02:28,234 She had this charismatic power over people. 40 00:02:28,235 --> 00:02:31,150 So, who is Ghislaine Maxwell? 41 00:02:31,151 --> 00:02:35,154 Who is the girl beneath all of this? 42 00:02:35,155 --> 00:02:36,720 Nobody knows. 43 00:03:06,273 --> 00:03:07,577 You were daddy's little girl. 44 00:03:07,578 --> 00:03:09,449 Like, you know, you were the youngest. 45 00:03:09,450 --> 00:03:13,104 What do you feel your parents were expecting you to become? 46 00:03:13,105 --> 00:03:16,238 Like all parents, they want their children to be happy. 47 00:03:16,239 --> 00:03:17,544 Are you happy? 48 00:03:19,416 --> 00:03:22,592 I...am happy in the sense 49 00:03:22,593 --> 00:03:25,552 that I have many things to be grateful for. 50 00:03:25,553 --> 00:03:28,424 But if I have a wish for myself, 51 00:03:28,425 --> 00:03:30,731 it's to be able to achieve something. 52 00:03:33,125 --> 00:03:35,649 I followed the story of Ghislaine Maxwell 53 00:03:35,650 --> 00:03:39,740 because she was somebody I knew at university. 54 00:03:39,741 --> 00:03:41,394 She would stand out because I-- 55 00:03:41,395 --> 00:03:46,007 and I remember this vividly-- in terms of her dress sense. 56 00:03:46,008 --> 00:03:47,704 She was flashy. 57 00:03:47,705 --> 00:03:50,751 Her clothes were new and modern. 58 00:03:50,752 --> 00:03:53,406 I remember from early dinners I had with Ghislaine 59 00:03:53,407 --> 00:03:57,279 that she was kind of the life of the party. 60 00:04:00,065 --> 00:04:03,894 She ran with a fast crowd, and you'd see, you know, 61 00:04:03,895 --> 00:04:07,158 movie stars and visiting royalty. 62 00:04:08,813 --> 00:04:13,905 Ghislaine was just impossibly fun. 63 00:04:14,950 --> 00:04:17,256 Zinging humor. 64 00:04:17,257 --> 00:04:19,562 She was able to figure out 65 00:04:19,563 --> 00:04:22,739 the comedic potential of everyone at the table. 66 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:27,266 So she could just have you in stitches. 67 00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:30,269 And I was intrigued 68 00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:34,360 by how... extraordinarily well-connected she was. 69 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:41,018 Well, Ghislaine was friends with everybody. 70 00:04:41,019 --> 00:04:44,370 She was friends with Andrew and Fergie. 71 00:04:44,371 --> 00:04:46,372 You want the ocean to be sustainably managed, 72 00:04:46,373 --> 00:04:47,895 and that is the message that we... 73 00:04:47,896 --> 00:04:50,724 She was involved in charity work. 74 00:04:50,725 --> 00:04:53,944 She was always, like, jetting around somewhere, 75 00:04:53,945 --> 00:04:56,207 you know, fabulous. 76 00:04:56,208 --> 00:04:58,906 She was quite mysterious in a way. 77 00:04:58,907 --> 00:05:04,694 You just never really knew exactly what she was doing. 78 00:05:04,695 --> 00:05:06,870 She's obviously like a good actress 79 00:05:06,871 --> 00:05:10,831 because there was this whole other, like, dark world 80 00:05:10,832 --> 00:05:13,747 that was going on that was really shocking. 81 00:05:15,924 --> 00:05:17,316 This relationship between 82 00:05:17,317 --> 00:05:19,579 Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell 83 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:20,841 was really a partnership 84 00:05:20,842 --> 00:05:24,411 on a sexual level and a financial level. 85 00:05:26,108 --> 00:05:28,196 I worked for Ghislaine and Jeffrey 86 00:05:28,197 --> 00:05:30,546 in his New York mansion. 87 00:05:30,547 --> 00:05:34,855 I asked Ghislaine what her relationship was with Jeffrey, 88 00:05:34,856 --> 00:05:38,380 because she appeared to be more like an employer or a coworker. 89 00:05:38,381 --> 00:05:40,295 She told me they were married, 90 00:05:40,296 --> 00:05:42,471 and then she told me that evening 91 00:05:42,472 --> 00:05:44,343 that they weren't actually married 92 00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:47,650 but that they were dating and he was cheating on her. 93 00:05:47,651 --> 00:05:49,043 Okay, so, what is it? 94 00:05:52,134 --> 00:05:54,440 I think that one of the saddest things actually 95 00:05:54,441 --> 00:05:56,224 that I've read about the whole thing 96 00:05:56,225 --> 00:05:58,357 is in the deposition when she was asked 97 00:05:58,358 --> 00:06:00,837 what her relationship with Epstein was 98 00:06:00,838 --> 00:06:02,491 and was it a relationship, 99 00:06:02,492 --> 00:06:05,712 and she sort of answered, saying she wasn't really sure. 100 00:06:05,713 --> 00:06:08,149 She was you know, part friend, part fixer. 101 00:06:08,150 --> 00:06:11,848 She was the one who-- who would... 102 00:06:11,849 --> 00:06:14,329 satisfy his every whim. 103 00:06:14,330 --> 00:06:18,420 The only boyfriend I've ever heard about was Jeffrey Epstein, 104 00:06:18,421 --> 00:06:21,989 who doesn't strike me as a terribly good choice. 105 00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:35,089 Today, we announce the unsealing 106 00:06:35,090 --> 00:06:39,398 of sex-trafficking charges against Jeffrey Epstein. 107 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:41,138 A wealthy money manager whose friends 108 00:06:41,139 --> 00:06:42,879 have included presidents and a prince 109 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,230 is behind bars in Manhattan tonight. 110 00:06:46,231 --> 00:06:48,885 Arrested Saturday night when his private plane 111 00:06:48,886 --> 00:06:51,540 arrived back here in the U.S. from Paris. 112 00:06:51,541 --> 00:06:54,325 He's alleged to have abused dozens of girls, 113 00:06:54,326 --> 00:06:56,240 some as young as 14. 114 00:07:08,602 --> 00:07:12,518 We know that he was flying around globally 115 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:14,476 and that this was an international 116 00:07:14,477 --> 00:07:17,261 sex-trafficking scheme that he had developed 117 00:07:17,262 --> 00:07:20,874 in countries and cities around the globe. 118 00:07:28,273 --> 00:07:30,187 Ghislaine Maxwell was out in the open 119 00:07:30,188 --> 00:07:32,146 once Jeffrey Epstein was arrested, 120 00:07:32,147 --> 00:07:34,191 and she felt secure enough to travel the world, 121 00:07:34,192 --> 00:07:36,716 and she felt, I think, that her "Teflon Don," 122 00:07:36,717 --> 00:07:38,457 essentially, would get away 123 00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:42,373 and he would somehow cut a deal and not have any concerns. 124 00:07:47,292 --> 00:07:49,076 Breaking news out of New York. 125 00:07:49,077 --> 00:07:51,426 Jeffrey Epstein is dead. 126 00:07:51,427 --> 00:07:53,689 The 66-year-old was discovered in his jail cell 127 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:54,908 early this morning. 128 00:07:56,737 --> 00:07:59,782 Jeffery Epstein went to his grave 129 00:07:59,783 --> 00:08:02,176 taking many secrets with him. 130 00:08:02,177 --> 00:08:04,613 You have to believe people felt a relief 131 00:08:04,614 --> 00:08:06,136 that Jeffery Epstein was dead. 132 00:08:06,137 --> 00:08:09,488 If the public knew the secrets that he knew, 133 00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:11,838 it would be shocking. 134 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:14,405 The people who are most devastated by this 135 00:08:14,406 --> 00:08:16,843 are the victims because they're not going to be able 136 00:08:16,844 --> 00:08:19,106 to see justice in the way they wanted. 137 00:08:19,107 --> 00:08:21,238 Do I feel his death was an appropriate punishment? 138 00:08:21,239 --> 00:08:23,458 Absolutely not. It gives nobody justice. 139 00:08:23,459 --> 00:08:27,506 Their hope now would be if one of his co-conspirators 140 00:08:27,507 --> 00:08:29,725 was charged with crimes. 141 00:08:29,726 --> 00:08:31,292 He didn't do this alone. 142 00:08:31,293 --> 00:08:34,425 He had people working for him, people working with him, 143 00:08:34,426 --> 00:08:36,863 and he had people that enabled his entire operation. 144 00:08:36,864 --> 00:08:39,648 And number one on that list is Ghislaine Maxwell, 145 00:08:39,649 --> 00:08:41,737 who's accused of finding teenage girls 146 00:08:41,738 --> 00:08:45,306 for Epstein and his friends. 147 00:08:45,307 --> 00:08:47,264 Without Ghislaine, I don't think any of us 148 00:08:47,265 --> 00:08:49,049 would have been there-- or very few of us-- 149 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:52,226 because there was always a woman that made it so we could trust. 150 00:08:57,537 --> 00:08:59,886 I was initially introduced to Ghislaine, 151 00:08:59,887 --> 00:09:05,065 um, and she's who introduced me to Jeffrey Epstein. 152 00:09:05,066 --> 00:09:06,632 Jeffrey had this sickness. 153 00:09:06,633 --> 00:09:08,851 They worked together as a unit. 154 00:09:08,852 --> 00:09:10,505 I was brought in by Ghislaine, 155 00:09:10,506 --> 00:09:15,597 and at that time, she was the main procurer for Jeffrey. 156 00:09:15,598 --> 00:09:17,730 You know, when Jeffrey wanted me, 157 00:09:17,731 --> 00:09:20,994 Ghislaine would call me to his bedroom. 158 00:09:20,995 --> 00:09:24,127 Ghislaine was always on the phone organizing things. 159 00:09:24,128 --> 00:09:26,956 Ghislaine knew every time she called me 160 00:09:26,957 --> 00:09:30,090 I was going to be raped-- every time. 161 00:09:32,006 --> 00:09:35,661 It was a pyramid scheme of sexual abuse 162 00:09:35,662 --> 00:09:39,360 with Jeffrey Epstein at the top. 163 00:09:39,361 --> 00:09:42,581 Ghislaine is accused of hovering outside school gates 164 00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:46,193 grooming these girls, offering them shopping trips, 165 00:09:46,194 --> 00:09:48,891 girly things, presenting herself as the ultimate 166 00:09:48,892 --> 00:09:51,590 kind of mother, protector, and girlfriend. 167 00:09:51,591 --> 00:09:54,636 That's what appalls me the most, actually. 168 00:09:54,637 --> 00:09:58,161 I mean, that is duplicitous to the most horrific degree. 169 00:10:04,212 --> 00:10:05,691 Ghislaine takes a victim 170 00:10:05,692 --> 00:10:08,868 and converts the victim into a co-conspirator 171 00:10:08,869 --> 00:10:12,611 so that they can then go and branch out and get more victims. 172 00:10:12,612 --> 00:10:15,483 Basically creating an organization. 173 00:10:15,484 --> 00:10:16,919 There were lieutenants, 174 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,791 there were schedulers, there were fixers. 175 00:10:21,142 --> 00:10:24,057 The moment Jeffrey Epstein died 176 00:10:24,058 --> 00:10:26,625 Ghislaine Maxwell disappeared. 177 00:10:26,626 --> 00:10:28,670 She went underground. 178 00:10:31,108 --> 00:10:33,283 Ultimately, Ghislaine Maxwell is likely scared 179 00:10:33,284 --> 00:10:35,242 because she holds the same secrets 180 00:10:35,243 --> 00:10:36,722 that Jeffrey Epstein does. 181 00:10:36,723 --> 00:10:39,463 She also knows where the bodies are buried. 182 00:10:42,119 --> 00:10:44,555 I think the crimes she's accused of 183 00:10:44,556 --> 00:10:47,210 are worse than Epstein's because you think, as a woman, 184 00:10:47,211 --> 00:10:50,953 you absolutely betrayed your sex, your gender. 185 00:10:50,954 --> 00:10:53,608 It's-- It's astonishing to me. 186 00:10:53,609 --> 00:10:56,698 I always believe in the end that the truth will out 187 00:10:56,699 --> 00:11:00,441 and that, uh, eventually, 188 00:11:00,442 --> 00:11:04,750 the true story, such as it is, will be-- 189 00:11:04,751 --> 00:11:09,189 People will know more than-- than what they currently do. 190 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:12,192 It-- It'll take time. It'll take time. That's all. 191 00:11:15,544 --> 00:11:18,677 The woman sitting in a New York prison cell 192 00:11:18,678 --> 00:11:21,636 bears absolutely no resemblance 193 00:11:21,637 --> 00:11:26,597 to this very confident, monied, social girl that I knew. 194 00:11:29,514 --> 00:11:31,080 I mean, you sort of think... 195 00:11:31,081 --> 00:11:34,910 how on Earth could you have got to this place? 196 00:11:37,784 --> 00:11:42,657 Robert Maxwell was, quite frankly, a terrifying father. 197 00:11:42,658 --> 00:11:45,138 And all the children would have learned early 198 00:11:45,139 --> 00:11:46,748 that you had to please Daddy 199 00:11:46,749 --> 00:11:50,404 and, no matter what cost, he had to be placated, 200 00:11:50,405 --> 00:11:52,623 he had to be pleased. 201 00:11:52,624 --> 00:11:54,625 So I think to understand Ghislaine Maxwell 202 00:11:54,626 --> 00:11:58,718 you have to start with the father, Robert Maxwell. 203 00:12:05,594 --> 00:12:07,595 Two years ago, the name Maxwell was, like, 204 00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:09,249 "power", "money", everything. 205 00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:12,078 What do you feel right now when you're carrying this name? 206 00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:14,384 I don't know. You tell me what you think. 207 00:12:14,385 --> 00:12:16,605 I'm proud of it. 208 00:12:17,998 --> 00:12:20,042 You don't-- You didn't even think for one second 209 00:12:20,043 --> 00:12:21,217 to change it to something? 210 00:12:21,218 --> 00:12:22,479 No, I love my name. 211 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:23,916 I was born with it, and I'm proud of it, 212 00:12:23,917 --> 00:12:27,094 and I shall remain proud of it forever. 213 00:12:30,184 --> 00:12:33,490 Once upon a Christmastime in a big house on a hill, 214 00:12:33,491 --> 00:12:36,842 there lived a man, his wife, and their eight children. 215 00:12:41,238 --> 00:12:43,283 And everybody looked up at the hill and said, 216 00:12:43,284 --> 00:12:45,067 "What a super Christmas I'd have 217 00:12:45,068 --> 00:12:47,330 if my father were a millionaire," 218 00:12:47,331 --> 00:12:49,942 which Robert Maxwell is. 219 00:12:49,943 --> 00:12:52,118 Decorations... 220 00:12:52,119 --> 00:12:54,729 The root of where Ghislaine has ended up today 221 00:12:54,730 --> 00:12:57,863 is all to do with her relationship with her father. 222 00:13:00,257 --> 00:13:03,216 The family filled the house with their excitement, 223 00:13:03,217 --> 00:13:04,695 particularly Ghislaine, 224 00:13:04,696 --> 00:13:07,350 who's 5 and, like the baby of any family, 225 00:13:07,351 --> 00:13:10,832 has Daddy very much under control. 226 00:13:10,833 --> 00:13:13,226 - I'm getting down... - All right. 227 00:13:15,011 --> 00:13:17,317 I think everything about her relationship 228 00:13:17,318 --> 00:13:21,060 with her father led her into her relationship with Epstein 229 00:13:21,061 --> 00:13:22,235 and, from what's alleged, 230 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:25,107 becoming the ultimate daddy's girl, 231 00:13:25,108 --> 00:13:29,329 socialite, networker, who became the ultimate madame. 232 00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:36,727 Did you get some of Daddy's presents? 233 00:13:36,728 --> 00:13:38,555 Yes. 234 00:13:41,864 --> 00:13:45,040 My sister remembers at a very young age 235 00:13:45,041 --> 00:13:48,348 going to birthday parties at the Maxwell house, 236 00:13:48,349 --> 00:13:51,090 and she remembers the sort of visceral fear 237 00:13:51,091 --> 00:13:53,832 of the figure of Robert Maxwell in the background. 238 00:13:53,833 --> 00:13:57,400 He genuinely was a very difficult, 239 00:13:57,401 --> 00:13:59,620 unpleasant, and terrifying man. 240 00:13:59,621 --> 00:14:02,057 Ghislaine was his youngest child, 241 00:14:02,058 --> 00:14:04,451 and she was a daddy's girl, 242 00:14:04,452 --> 00:14:06,540 but a daddy's girl with a difference 243 00:14:06,541 --> 00:14:08,194 that daddy could turn. 244 00:14:08,195 --> 00:14:11,850 And she learned to navigate a man with a terrible temper. 245 00:14:11,851 --> 00:14:16,158 She learned early to read a powerful man's moods. 246 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:19,509 She had these strange traits of character 247 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:22,599 which we all know came from Robert Maxwell. 248 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,166 Insufferable. 249 00:14:24,167 --> 00:14:26,734 Ruthless. Brazen. 250 00:14:26,735 --> 00:14:28,954 Fiery. Humorless. 251 00:14:28,955 --> 00:14:32,566 Impatient. Intolerant. Rude. 252 00:14:32,567 --> 00:14:34,916 To how much of that do you plead guilty? 253 00:14:34,917 --> 00:14:37,440 I plead guilty to all of it. 254 00:14:37,441 --> 00:14:41,053 The beginning of understanding what kind of man he was 255 00:14:41,054 --> 00:14:44,708 is to understand his childhood. 256 00:14:46,755 --> 00:14:50,149 Robert Maxwell's original name was Jan Ludwig Hoch. 257 00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:52,281 He was born in one of the most impoverished 258 00:14:52,282 --> 00:14:55,806 Orthodox Jewish shtetls in one of the most poorest, 259 00:14:55,807 --> 00:14:58,374 impoverished parts of Eastern Europe. 260 00:14:58,375 --> 00:15:00,115 He didn't have shoes of his own. 261 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:03,336 He shared a pair with one of his sisters. 262 00:15:03,337 --> 00:15:07,470 We lived in one room. It would be about seven children. 263 00:15:07,471 --> 00:15:10,909 We had no fire. We just had nothing. 264 00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:15,217 He had a traumatic beginning to his life as a child. 265 00:15:15,218 --> 00:15:19,395 Most of his family, uh, were wiped out in the Holocaust. 266 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:22,616 I think the experience of extreme poverty 267 00:15:22,617 --> 00:15:26,533 and great hardship scarred him for life. 268 00:15:26,534 --> 00:15:31,886 Not being poor became an absolute imperative. 269 00:15:31,887 --> 00:15:33,932 He had to have money. 270 00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:35,934 Which meant having to do 271 00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:38,849 all sorts of tricks and crooked business. 272 00:15:40,809 --> 00:15:44,856 Anything to prosper, to profit, to survive. 273 00:15:46,293 --> 00:15:48,598 Robert Maxwell was a huge survivor, 274 00:15:48,599 --> 00:15:50,992 whether from the ghetto in Eastern Europe 275 00:15:50,993 --> 00:15:53,560 or during the Second world war. 276 00:15:53,561 --> 00:15:56,519 He was absolutely determined to come to Britain 277 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,434 to fight the Nazis. 278 00:15:58,435 --> 00:16:00,697 And he was a very brave soldier. 279 00:16:00,698 --> 00:16:03,222 But then, in post-war Berlin, 280 00:16:03,223 --> 00:16:05,528 he was working for British intelligence 281 00:16:05,529 --> 00:16:08,009 and also made links on the other side 282 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:09,750 of the divided city of Berlin 283 00:16:09,751 --> 00:16:12,535 with the Russian intelligence service, the KGB, 284 00:16:12,536 --> 00:16:14,929 and became a Russian spy, too. 285 00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:17,453 So he always saw the profit of playing every side 286 00:16:17,454 --> 00:16:20,500 because in the end there's only one side-- that was himself. 287 00:16:20,501 --> 00:16:23,242 Here was a man who'd had to invent himself, 288 00:16:23,243 --> 00:16:26,027 who believed that having done it once, 289 00:16:26,028 --> 00:16:27,898 he could do it many times over. 290 00:16:27,899 --> 00:16:31,032 The masquerade had worked. 291 00:16:31,033 --> 00:16:33,687 And so he embraced that 292 00:16:33,688 --> 00:16:36,646 for the rest of his life in the business sphere. 293 00:16:36,647 --> 00:16:38,997 Maxwell, when he came back to England, 294 00:16:38,998 --> 00:16:40,999 renamed himself Robert Maxwell 295 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,783 after the Maxwell coffee brand 296 00:16:42,784 --> 00:16:48,310 and then set about to build up his, uh, crooked business. 297 00:16:48,311 --> 00:16:51,835 Maxwell used links with British intelligence 298 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:55,187 to profit from a German scientific publishing company 299 00:16:55,188 --> 00:16:58,103 where scientists eager to publish their findings 300 00:16:58,104 --> 00:17:01,236 gave him their work for next to nothing, 301 00:17:01,237 --> 00:17:04,196 and he resold it to the libraries across the world 302 00:17:04,197 --> 00:17:08,069 at a huge profit and kept the money for himself. 303 00:17:08,070 --> 00:17:10,550 That became a scientific publishing company 304 00:17:10,551 --> 00:17:12,508 called Pergamon Press, 305 00:17:12,509 --> 00:17:15,468 which was the foundation of his wealth. 306 00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:21,082 But in 1969, it was discovered 307 00:17:21,083 --> 00:17:23,780 the company was riddled with fraud. 308 00:17:23,781 --> 00:17:25,434 The Department of Trade Inquiry 309 00:17:25,435 --> 00:17:27,871 criticized his accounting methods and his honesty 310 00:17:27,872 --> 00:17:31,005 and branded him unfit to exercise proper stewardship 311 00:17:31,006 --> 00:17:32,746 of a public company. 312 00:17:35,967 --> 00:17:38,839 It was a huge embarrassment. 313 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:44,366 He faced down investigations and all sorts of prosecutions. 314 00:17:44,367 --> 00:17:49,545 But he was able to get away with it and build up his wealth. 315 00:17:49,546 --> 00:17:53,158 Mr. Maxwell, what's your reaction to the allegations? 316 00:17:53,159 --> 00:17:54,724 I deny them utterly. 317 00:17:54,725 --> 00:17:58,467 The point about a conman is never to admit wrong. 318 00:17:58,468 --> 00:18:01,383 The moment you admit that you've done wrong, you're finished. 319 00:18:01,384 --> 00:18:04,082 The only thing you can do and you must do 320 00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:05,605 if you're a conman and criminal 321 00:18:05,606 --> 00:18:07,650 is always insist on your innocence. 322 00:18:12,787 --> 00:18:17,704 I think that's exactly what Ghislaine is going to do. 323 00:18:17,705 --> 00:18:21,316 She will lie and hope to get away with it. 324 00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:25,755 Anyone's parents have an influential position 325 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:27,931 on their personality and on their behavior, 326 00:18:27,932 --> 00:18:30,934 but with someone who is as dominant 327 00:18:30,935 --> 00:18:34,112 and as difficult as Robert Maxwell was, 328 00:18:34,113 --> 00:18:38,420 there's no way that he hasn't shaped who she is now. 329 00:18:38,421 --> 00:18:41,336 And, undoubtedly, she was hugely influenced by her father 330 00:18:41,337 --> 00:18:43,860 and learned to survive and tolerate 331 00:18:43,861 --> 00:18:46,515 a domineering ogre and tyrant... 332 00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:49,910 ...of clearly dishonest motives and way of life. 333 00:18:49,911 --> 00:18:52,130 You are a billionaire who's got where you are 334 00:18:52,131 --> 00:18:53,566 on the backs of working people. 335 00:18:53,567 --> 00:18:55,524 You got nothing in common with the working class. 336 00:18:55,525 --> 00:18:57,222 You are a fascist. - That's it. Attack... 337 00:18:57,223 --> 00:18:58,919 He was such a bully, 338 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,532 and I saw him berate people over a very small matter... 339 00:19:05,056 --> 00:19:08,189 ...dismiss people over a very small matter. 340 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:09,973 Just give him the message him, please, 341 00:19:09,974 --> 00:19:12,498 and stop giving us a hard time. 342 00:19:12,499 --> 00:19:16,197 He used to slam his hand down on this glass desk 343 00:19:16,198 --> 00:19:18,156 like you thought it was gonna break 344 00:19:18,157 --> 00:19:20,201 and really stare at you, hover in your face, 345 00:19:20,202 --> 00:19:22,943 and you kept thinking, "He is going to hit me now." 346 00:19:25,294 --> 00:19:28,209 It certainly sounds like Ghislaine has a temper, as well, 347 00:19:28,210 --> 00:19:31,431 which I recognize from her father. 348 00:19:37,045 --> 00:19:39,177 The pounding fists on the table is behavior 349 00:19:39,178 --> 00:19:42,136 that's definitely Maxwell territory. 350 00:19:42,137 --> 00:19:45,574 I have a natural instinct for war. 351 00:19:45,575 --> 00:19:50,405 And you better have good lawyers and large resources 352 00:19:50,406 --> 00:19:53,191 and be on your guard. 353 00:19:53,192 --> 00:19:55,628 I think if you're that close to somebody 354 00:19:55,629 --> 00:19:58,500 who was clearly so devious and corrupt, 355 00:19:58,501 --> 00:20:00,676 and you saw what was going on, 356 00:20:00,677 --> 00:20:03,418 that behavior becomes normalized. 357 00:20:03,419 --> 00:20:08,989 In her world, powerful men doing despicable things-- 358 00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:10,512 you are able to sort of see it 359 00:20:10,513 --> 00:20:13,385 and equally remove yourself from it. 360 00:20:13,386 --> 00:20:18,303 And after a while, when you grow up with that, it becomes normal. 361 00:20:18,304 --> 00:20:20,522 You lose your moral compass. 362 00:20:33,406 --> 00:20:35,102 I grew up in Oxford, 363 00:20:35,103 --> 00:20:37,844 and everyone in Oxford knew who the Maxwells were, 364 00:20:37,845 --> 00:20:40,412 but they weren't the Oxford intellectuals. 365 00:20:40,413 --> 00:20:43,502 They were a rather more exotic family 366 00:20:43,503 --> 00:20:45,243 because of Robert's wealth. 367 00:20:56,864 --> 00:20:59,779 The house on the hill is an open house, 368 00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:02,869 and the children take their places beside their parents 369 00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:06,089 to greet their 200 guests and to enjoy themselves, 370 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:09,789 even Ghislaine. 371 00:21:09,790 --> 00:21:12,182 Ghislaine grew up in a very, very wealthy, 372 00:21:12,183 --> 00:21:14,272 comfortable existence. 373 00:21:18,189 --> 00:21:20,060 There was plenty of cash, 374 00:21:20,061 --> 00:21:24,020 and anything that they wanted they could have. 375 00:21:24,021 --> 00:21:26,893 The family lived at this grand country estate. 376 00:21:26,894 --> 00:21:31,593 They had private jets. They had huge parties. 377 00:21:33,988 --> 00:21:36,119 It was the high life. 378 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,298 They epitomized the high life. 379 00:21:40,299 --> 00:21:45,128 But this girl grew up with an abusive father. 380 00:21:45,129 --> 00:21:47,348 Ghislaine's brothers Ian and Kevin told me 381 00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:50,003 that their father was hooked on discipline and on duty. 382 00:21:50,004 --> 00:21:51,787 They were the most important things to him. 383 00:21:51,788 --> 00:21:55,965 And he ran the household almost like you would run a company. 384 00:21:55,966 --> 00:21:57,489 I mean, there were nine children, 385 00:21:57,490 --> 00:21:59,621 and he would almost put them on trial. 386 00:21:59,622 --> 00:22:01,057 He would fire questions at them, 387 00:22:01,058 --> 00:22:03,843 and if they failed to answer them correctly, 388 00:22:03,844 --> 00:22:05,235 he would make them assess 389 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:07,673 why they had failed to answer them correctly. 390 00:22:07,674 --> 00:22:09,239 And it was-- it was humiliation. 391 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,329 It was like a public dressing-down. 392 00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:14,201 He used to subject them to these grillings 393 00:22:14,202 --> 00:22:17,900 in front of other people at Sunday lunches. 394 00:22:17,901 --> 00:22:21,077 One child would be told to perform, as it were, 395 00:22:21,078 --> 00:22:24,254 and he would tell them, "Speak clearly and concisely!" 396 00:22:24,255 --> 00:22:27,519 And that would only put them under even more pressure. 397 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:28,955 Chastising them... 398 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:31,827 and was not above using corporal punishment. 399 00:22:31,828 --> 00:22:35,875 And his wife did not step in to intervene. 400 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:38,356 She was enthralled to him, as well. 401 00:22:42,012 --> 00:22:44,362 I think it's fascinating that we all know 402 00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,668 so little about Betty Maxwell, 403 00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:51,151 and she was very much seen as the mother in the background. 404 00:22:51,152 --> 00:22:53,371 Robert Maxwell had been very close to his mother, 405 00:22:53,372 --> 00:22:55,764 whom he lost in the Holocaust. 406 00:22:55,765 --> 00:22:58,506 And, clearly, he was looking for someone 407 00:22:58,507 --> 00:23:02,118 who would give him comfort and security, which Betty did. 408 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,078 Not only produced an enormous number of children, 409 00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:09,474 but organized the home and put up with his appalling behavior. 410 00:23:09,475 --> 00:23:12,390 When Robert Maxwell was shouting at all of the children 411 00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:15,001 and making them feel awful around the dinner table, 412 00:23:15,002 --> 00:23:17,743 their mother was allowing it to happen. 413 00:23:17,744 --> 00:23:22,138 She was being the good wife. She was playing the role-- 414 00:23:22,139 --> 00:23:26,491 She was the enabler, you know? She enabled him. 415 00:23:26,492 --> 00:23:30,016 It's very easy to imagine that this experience 416 00:23:30,017 --> 00:23:31,539 could influence Ghislaine 417 00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:33,628 that this is what the perfect relationship 418 00:23:33,629 --> 00:23:35,761 or the comfortable dynamic is-- 419 00:23:35,762 --> 00:23:37,937 that there's a powerful, demanding person 420 00:23:37,938 --> 00:23:41,114 and a woman who helps them. 421 00:23:41,115 --> 00:23:42,420 The kids were a unit. 422 00:23:42,421 --> 00:23:44,291 Ian and Kevin, when I spoke to them, 423 00:23:44,292 --> 00:23:46,380 talked about forming a defensive chest position, 424 00:23:46,381 --> 00:23:48,338 that that's how they survived their father. 425 00:23:48,339 --> 00:23:50,863 It was like a defensive stance that they took. 426 00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:53,213 They interlocked, and that allowed them 427 00:23:53,214 --> 00:23:55,824 to withstand Robert's rages. 428 00:24:00,221 --> 00:24:02,004 Two days after Ghislaine was born, 429 00:24:02,005 --> 00:24:03,571 her eldest brother, Michael, 430 00:24:03,572 --> 00:24:05,965 was involved in a very serious car crash 431 00:24:05,966 --> 00:24:08,533 and he was in a coma for the next seven years. 432 00:24:08,534 --> 00:24:11,753 So the time when she would have been showered 433 00:24:11,754 --> 00:24:13,363 with parental affection, 434 00:24:13,364 --> 00:24:15,627 the family were, in fact, in the middle of an-- 435 00:24:15,628 --> 00:24:18,107 of dealing with an enormous crisis. 436 00:24:18,108 --> 00:24:21,720 It meant that the early years of Ghislaine's life 437 00:24:21,721 --> 00:24:25,550 would have been very much eclipsed by this tragedy. 438 00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:31,338 There's a story in her mother, Betty Maxwell's, book, 439 00:24:31,339 --> 00:24:35,647 where Ghislaine sat on her lap and said, "Mummy, I exist." 440 00:24:35,648 --> 00:24:38,084 And she also said that she thinks 441 00:24:38,085 --> 00:24:40,521 that that's the beginning of Ghislaine's eating disorder. 442 00:24:40,522 --> 00:24:42,436 Her mother was convinced that, even as a toddler, 443 00:24:42,437 --> 00:24:45,657 she was already showing signs of anorexia, 444 00:24:45,658 --> 00:24:47,833 and they thought that it was to do with attention, 445 00:24:47,834 --> 00:24:52,228 it was a way of trying to get attention from her parents. 446 00:24:52,229 --> 00:24:55,144 And at that point, Robert and Betty realized 447 00:24:55,145 --> 00:24:57,843 that they had been neglecting their daughter completely 448 00:24:57,844 --> 00:25:01,324 and tried to make up for this terrible beginning to her life 449 00:25:01,325 --> 00:25:03,762 and showered her with love and affection. 450 00:25:05,852 --> 00:25:07,853 And of all the Maxwell children, 451 00:25:07,854 --> 00:25:10,116 Ghislaine is the only one who was spoiled. 452 00:25:10,117 --> 00:25:13,206 They spoiled her as a result of it. 453 00:25:13,207 --> 00:25:17,384 So she had everything she wanted in material terms. 454 00:25:17,385 --> 00:25:19,429 Ghislaine would definitely have realized 455 00:25:19,430 --> 00:25:22,563 at a very early age that money was important to her. 456 00:25:22,564 --> 00:25:25,523 Robert Maxwell was more generous and accommodating 457 00:25:25,524 --> 00:25:28,090 towards her than the older children. 458 00:25:28,091 --> 00:25:29,396 And Ghislaine would definitely 459 00:25:29,397 --> 00:25:31,659 have aligned herself more with her father 460 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:36,142 because she has definitely seen wealth as protection, 461 00:25:36,143 --> 00:25:38,623 and we saw that very much later on with Epstein. 462 00:25:38,624 --> 00:25:41,930 Ghislaine's story is essentially the story of, 463 00:25:41,931 --> 00:25:44,063 you know, daddy's little girl, 464 00:25:44,064 --> 00:25:46,239 and it all went horribly wrong 465 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,591 when daddy turned out to be a crook. 466 00:26:10,786 --> 00:26:14,267 I was at Oxford with Ghislaine. 467 00:26:14,268 --> 00:26:17,923 It was mid-'80s, so it was the height of Princess Diana. 468 00:26:17,924 --> 00:26:19,533 Thatcher was in power. 469 00:26:19,534 --> 00:26:21,013 It was Gordon Gekko. 470 00:26:21,014 --> 00:26:23,276 Greed is good. 471 00:26:23,277 --> 00:26:24,538 It was the '80s. 472 00:26:24,539 --> 00:26:26,148 Even the clothes were flamboyant. 473 00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:29,761 We all wore massive shoulder pads and puffs of taffeta. 474 00:26:29,762 --> 00:26:32,328 It was a very extravagant era. 475 00:26:32,329 --> 00:26:35,462 We were there with Boris Johnson, David Cameron. 476 00:26:35,463 --> 00:26:38,987 And you were kind of accepted in that social set 477 00:26:38,988 --> 00:26:42,251 if you were from an aristocratic family. 478 00:26:44,341 --> 00:26:46,299 Ghislaine wasn't from that background, 479 00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:48,910 but she would've been accepted in that social circle 480 00:26:48,911 --> 00:26:51,609 because of her father's notoriety, 481 00:26:51,610 --> 00:26:55,830 and wealth and power spoke volumes in the mid-'80s. 482 00:26:55,831 --> 00:26:58,398 Have you got drinks? 483 00:26:58,399 --> 00:27:03,969 She really enjoyed being social and having dinner parties. 484 00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:08,364 She was very much into the whole social scene. 485 00:27:08,365 --> 00:27:09,670 As soon as I met her, 486 00:27:09,671 --> 00:27:11,890 what really was striking about her was 487 00:27:11,891 --> 00:27:14,632 she was somebody who would kiss you hello 488 00:27:14,633 --> 00:27:16,242 and then look over your shoulder 489 00:27:16,243 --> 00:27:18,505 to see if there was someone more interesting, 490 00:27:18,506 --> 00:27:22,422 more useful, more powerful, more famous to talk to. 491 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:27,645 There's a feeling always of stepping up a league, 492 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:29,603 going to the next influential person, 493 00:27:29,604 --> 00:27:33,346 going to the next head of state, the party, the boat, whatever. 494 00:27:33,347 --> 00:27:35,391 You absolutely had the sense 495 00:27:35,392 --> 00:27:37,524 that she wasn't really present to you 496 00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:39,657 and she wasn't really going to connect with you. 497 00:27:39,658 --> 00:27:41,876 It was a sense of scanning always 498 00:27:41,877 --> 00:27:46,751 to see who could be more influential or useful to her. 499 00:27:52,845 --> 00:27:55,803 Ghislaine Maxwell was very happy to be photographed 500 00:27:55,804 --> 00:27:58,893 and sometimes would ask me to take pictures of her 501 00:27:58,894 --> 00:28:00,503 with someone, 502 00:28:00,504 --> 00:28:05,421 in particular if there was a famous person she was with. 503 00:28:05,422 --> 00:28:09,164 I lived in Oxford, and I'd started photographing 504 00:28:09,165 --> 00:28:12,254 some of the exclusive student parties 505 00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:15,605 for a few years in the early '80s. 506 00:28:15,606 --> 00:28:18,217 It was high society. 507 00:28:18,218 --> 00:28:21,220 Ghislaine Maxwell would tend to be at nightclub openings 508 00:28:21,221 --> 00:28:24,919 and charity events that you paid to buy a ticket, 509 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,708 but she was moving gradually more into a higher society role. 510 00:28:32,145 --> 00:28:34,102 I think she seemed very animated. 511 00:28:34,103 --> 00:28:36,888 She seemed to be enjoying herself every time I saw her. 512 00:28:36,889 --> 00:28:38,846 She seemed to have a very nice life. 513 00:28:38,847 --> 00:28:41,196 Probably some people disapproved of her. 514 00:28:41,197 --> 00:28:44,112 Her father already had a bad reputation. 515 00:28:44,113 --> 00:28:46,071 I first met Ghislaine 516 00:28:46,072 --> 00:28:49,683 shortly after I'd returned to do my master's degree, 517 00:28:49,684 --> 00:28:52,686 and I remember being at some sort of a party. 518 00:28:52,687 --> 00:28:55,907 I think it was probably a drinks party. 519 00:28:55,908 --> 00:28:59,562 As soon as I'm introduced, I'd barely spoken to her, 520 00:28:59,563 --> 00:29:02,957 and she said, "Will you take me out to dinner?" 521 00:29:02,958 --> 00:29:05,830 And I found that quite surprising. 522 00:29:05,831 --> 00:29:08,397 Ghislaine certainly wasn't my type, 523 00:29:08,398 --> 00:29:12,532 and I wouldn't have asked her on a date myself, 524 00:29:12,533 --> 00:29:14,577 but she was interesting. 525 00:29:14,578 --> 00:29:16,666 The way she asked me to take her out 526 00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:18,756 was unexpected and different. 527 00:29:18,757 --> 00:29:21,802 And I thought, "What have I got to lose?" 528 00:29:25,067 --> 00:29:27,547 Oxford was a very small town, 529 00:29:27,548 --> 00:29:29,854 and I didn't particularly want people to know 530 00:29:29,855 --> 00:29:32,770 who I was going out to dinner with, 531 00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:36,643 so I picked a restaurant seven miles outside Oxford. 532 00:29:38,341 --> 00:29:39,994 If I was there for one reason, 533 00:29:39,995 --> 00:29:42,518 it probably was to get to know her a bit, 534 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:44,782 and one would have hoped vice versa, 535 00:29:44,783 --> 00:29:47,349 but the only subject she really had to talk about 536 00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:48,829 was her father, 537 00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:52,833 how proud she was being her father's daughter, 538 00:29:52,834 --> 00:29:56,663 how she could pick up any national newspaper on any day 539 00:29:56,664 --> 00:30:00,667 and find at least one story about him in it. 540 00:30:00,668 --> 00:30:03,496 The impression I got from Ghislaine at that dinner 541 00:30:03,497 --> 00:30:06,499 was someone who's actually rather insecure. 542 00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:10,590 I felt there was a veneer of confidence and maturity 543 00:30:10,591 --> 00:30:13,071 but that a great deal of her persona 544 00:30:13,072 --> 00:30:17,379 was wrapped up in being Robert Maxwell's daughter. 545 00:30:28,174 --> 00:30:30,436 Robert Maxwell wanted wealth, 546 00:30:30,437 --> 00:30:33,482 but he also wanted power and influence, 547 00:30:33,483 --> 00:30:37,660 and owning newspapers was a way of wielding power. 548 00:30:37,661 --> 00:30:40,838 So he bought Mirror Group. 549 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:43,231 And that included Britain's most popular newspaper 550 00:30:43,232 --> 00:30:46,017 at that time, the "Daily Mirror." 551 00:30:46,018 --> 00:30:49,368 The "Mirror" newspapers are at a disadvantage at present, 552 00:30:49,369 --> 00:30:52,632 owing to the lack of the dynamic leadership 553 00:30:52,633 --> 00:30:55,765 of the kind that I believe that I could provide. 554 00:30:57,464 --> 00:31:02,598 Maxwell was an extraordinarily difficult person to work for. 555 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:06,385 I didn't sleep much during the year I worked for him. 556 00:31:06,386 --> 00:31:09,388 He liked to interfere. - Good job. 557 00:31:09,389 --> 00:31:13,740 He tried to have his name as often in the paper as possible. 558 00:31:13,741 --> 00:31:17,222 It was also he could use the newspaper for blackmail. 559 00:31:17,223 --> 00:31:19,877 I mean, very often, he would threaten people, 560 00:31:19,878 --> 00:31:22,357 that if they didn't do what he wanted, 561 00:31:22,358 --> 00:31:25,970 he would then publish an exposé in his newspaper. 562 00:31:25,971 --> 00:31:29,625 That was a favorite tactic of his. 563 00:31:31,628 --> 00:31:34,065 When I worked at the "Daily Mirror," 564 00:31:34,066 --> 00:31:37,851 we had a strange man who was the in-house detective... 565 00:31:39,245 --> 00:31:40,680 ...and he admitted to me 566 00:31:40,681 --> 00:31:42,551 that many of the phones were bugged, 567 00:31:42,552 --> 00:31:44,814 including the editor's phone. 568 00:31:53,607 --> 00:31:56,783 Ghislaine saw that if you kept the patriarchy happy, 569 00:31:56,784 --> 00:32:01,266 you were protected, and she was reared to please Daddy. 570 00:32:01,267 --> 00:32:03,137 Ghislaine wasn't a businesswoman, 571 00:32:03,138 --> 00:32:06,358 but Ghislaine's job was to represent Robert Maxwell 572 00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:09,883 when he was in different parts of the globe. 573 00:32:09,884 --> 00:32:13,887 I don't know what she would've said her job was. 574 00:32:13,888 --> 00:32:17,021 The other children actually had jobs within the empire, 575 00:32:17,022 --> 00:32:19,980 like, proper jobs, especially Ian and Kevin, 576 00:32:19,981 --> 00:32:21,939 whereas she seems to have occupied 577 00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:24,463 this strange social/business role 578 00:32:24,464 --> 00:32:28,032 that's quite hard to define even for her father. 579 00:32:28,033 --> 00:32:31,383 He bought her a football club, for crying out loud. 580 00:32:33,734 --> 00:32:36,344 I think, because he lived in Oxford, 581 00:32:36,345 --> 00:32:38,781 Maxwell thought, "Oh, well, I'll buy Oxford Football Club," 582 00:32:38,782 --> 00:32:40,958 because it was for sale. 583 00:32:42,525 --> 00:32:48,008 And then he put Ghislaine in charge of the football club. 584 00:32:48,009 --> 00:32:51,925 I don't imagine for a moment she was interested in football. 585 00:32:53,972 --> 00:32:55,842 I take the job of director very seriously. 586 00:32:55,843 --> 00:32:57,670 I don't think I would have accepted the job 587 00:32:57,671 --> 00:33:00,586 if it was just a matter of being a figurehead. 588 00:33:00,587 --> 00:33:03,197 The football league's first elected lady director 589 00:33:03,198 --> 00:33:04,938 is still, in fact, a student. 590 00:33:04,939 --> 00:33:06,853 She's at Balliol College in Oxford 591 00:33:06,854 --> 00:33:08,637 studying French and history. 592 00:33:08,638 --> 00:33:11,031 With her father having taken control of the matter, 593 00:33:11,032 --> 00:33:13,338 her place on the Oxford board was confirmed 594 00:33:13,339 --> 00:33:14,904 at the recent annual meeting. 595 00:33:14,905 --> 00:33:17,168 Her photograph will fill the space on the boardroom wall 596 00:33:17,169 --> 00:33:19,257 before the start of the new season. 597 00:33:19,258 --> 00:33:20,998 It's Ghislaine's particular responsibility 598 00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:24,001 to generate further interest in the club among young supporters, 599 00:33:24,002 --> 00:33:26,568 and any suggestion that her appointment is a gimmick 600 00:33:26,569 --> 00:33:28,005 doesn't carry much favor. 601 00:33:28,006 --> 00:33:31,312 I really do hope to contribute something positive 602 00:33:31,313 --> 00:33:32,966 to the club, 603 00:33:32,967 --> 00:33:37,797 both in terms of improving the social events, maybe, 604 00:33:37,798 --> 00:33:40,582 between the players and the supporters 605 00:33:40,583 --> 00:33:44,412 and in helping in whatever small way that I can 606 00:33:44,413 --> 00:33:48,590 in bringing a more sort of family atmosphere to the club. 607 00:33:51,290 --> 00:33:52,986 That's fantastic! 608 00:33:52,987 --> 00:33:55,206 I think there was a sense of impunity 609 00:33:55,207 --> 00:33:57,643 among certain members of the family, 610 00:33:57,644 --> 00:33:59,819 definitely Robert Maxwell himself. 611 00:33:59,820 --> 00:34:03,562 And it's there, evident, too, in Ghislaine-- 612 00:34:03,563 --> 00:34:05,433 that sense that, 613 00:34:05,434 --> 00:34:07,653 "Rules are for other people. 614 00:34:07,654 --> 00:34:09,916 We do what we want to do, 615 00:34:09,917 --> 00:34:12,788 and let the devil take the hindmost." 616 00:34:12,789 --> 00:34:15,878 And it's quite easy to see why Ghislaine, 617 00:34:15,879 --> 00:34:19,099 who had this father fixation, who was a daddy's girl, 618 00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:21,580 would then move on to this other, 619 00:34:21,581 --> 00:34:23,973 equally satanic father figure 620 00:34:23,974 --> 00:34:27,500 and do his bidding at whatever the cost. 621 00:34:35,377 --> 00:34:37,683 There's a similarity between Ghislaine's affection, 622 00:34:37,684 --> 00:34:40,120 love for her father, and Jeffrey Epstein. 623 00:34:40,121 --> 00:34:42,296 They have a lot in common. 624 00:34:42,297 --> 00:34:45,908 Both of them show strains of character 625 00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:50,391 in which there is very little empathy and very little warmth, 626 00:34:50,392 --> 00:34:53,525 and there is an absolute survival instinct. 627 00:34:53,526 --> 00:34:57,355 They were both men who were manipulators 628 00:34:57,356 --> 00:34:59,922 and who were out to get what they needed 629 00:34:59,923 --> 00:35:02,316 and what they wanted at any cost. 630 00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:14,589 Like Robert Maxwell, Jeffrey dreamed of riches 631 00:35:14,590 --> 00:35:16,504 from the little two-bedroom apartment 632 00:35:16,505 --> 00:35:19,159 he grew up in, in Coney Island. 633 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,422 Jeffrey Epstein came from a family 634 00:35:21,423 --> 00:35:22,684 that was working-class. 635 00:35:22,685 --> 00:35:24,251 They didn't really have much money. 636 00:35:24,252 --> 00:35:25,600 He had to hustle his way in 637 00:35:25,601 --> 00:35:27,820 to the life that he ended up having. 638 00:35:27,821 --> 00:35:29,865 Jeffrey was a nerdy kid 639 00:35:29,866 --> 00:35:34,043 who told classmates back at Lafayette High School, 640 00:35:34,044 --> 00:35:35,828 "I'm going to be rich when I grow up." 641 00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:39,136 And, you know, they all kind of laughed at him. 642 00:35:39,137 --> 00:35:41,790 But Jeffrey had a mind 643 00:35:41,791 --> 00:35:44,228 that kind of worked like a computer. 644 00:35:44,229 --> 00:35:47,013 You know, he was determined to make money, 645 00:35:47,014 --> 00:35:51,148 and he was going to accomplish that on Wall Street. 646 00:35:57,329 --> 00:36:00,983 It was a time when Wall Street was huge. 647 00:36:00,984 --> 00:36:03,856 And Jeffrey was seemingly on the fringes of it, 648 00:36:03,857 --> 00:36:06,075 but there was no computer on his desk. 649 00:36:06,076 --> 00:36:08,165 There was no back room where people traded. 650 00:36:08,166 --> 00:36:11,298 It wasn't clear what the source of the money was. 651 00:36:15,129 --> 00:36:18,566 The big question is, where did Jeffery's money come from? 652 00:36:20,047 --> 00:36:23,049 I think you have to go back to Bear Stearns, 653 00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:25,138 which is really where he received 654 00:36:25,139 --> 00:36:28,576 his first taste of money. 655 00:36:28,577 --> 00:36:30,883 Bear Stearns saw this potential 656 00:36:30,884 --> 00:36:33,451 in a guy who didn't know a stock from a bond 657 00:36:33,452 --> 00:36:36,584 but thought he was a brilliant mathematician 658 00:36:36,585 --> 00:36:39,413 and would do extremely well. 659 00:36:39,414 --> 00:36:42,677 But he was thrown out at Bear Stearns 660 00:36:42,678 --> 00:36:46,768 based on his violations of the rules for misconduct, 661 00:36:46,769 --> 00:36:50,990 and he was kind of blackballed in the United States. 662 00:36:50,991 --> 00:36:53,645 But it actually turned out to be a windfall for Jeffery 663 00:36:53,646 --> 00:36:56,213 to leave there because, you know, 664 00:36:56,214 --> 00:36:59,825 the riches that awaited him exceeded well beyond anything 665 00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:04,438 that he could have gained on Wall Street. 666 00:37:04,439 --> 00:37:07,920 Jeffery then dashed over to London, 667 00:37:07,921 --> 00:37:10,575 where he met Douglas Leese. 668 00:37:14,232 --> 00:37:18,235 Douglas Leese was an international arms merchant, 669 00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:23,501 and he was able to mold Jeffery into this world of arms dealing. 670 00:37:23,502 --> 00:37:27,244 This was an area of the financial world 671 00:37:27,245 --> 00:37:29,376 that was very shady. 672 00:37:29,377 --> 00:37:34,251 And the money, at this point, was pouring in. 673 00:37:34,252 --> 00:37:35,991 I met Jeffrey Epstein. 674 00:37:35,992 --> 00:37:41,083 He was a young, rather good-looking Jewish boy 675 00:37:41,084 --> 00:37:42,694 from New York 676 00:37:42,695 --> 00:37:47,133 that somehow appeared in Robert Maxwell's office. 677 00:37:48,657 --> 00:37:52,269 And I used to see him quite often in the office. 678 00:37:54,707 --> 00:37:59,363 Jeffrey Epstein presented himself to Robert Maxwell 679 00:37:59,364 --> 00:38:01,539 as a financial expert. 680 00:38:03,629 --> 00:38:07,196 Jeffrey Epstein was charming. 681 00:38:07,197 --> 00:38:09,982 He was charismatic 682 00:38:09,983 --> 00:38:12,941 and could read the person he's dealing with 683 00:38:12,942 --> 00:38:18,295 and understand what that person wants to hear. 684 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:21,123 He was a mastermind 685 00:38:21,124 --> 00:38:25,127 of how to manipulate and seduce people. 686 00:38:25,128 --> 00:38:27,652 So Robert Maxwell 687 00:38:27,653 --> 00:38:32,874 entered into a deep relationship in business 688 00:38:32,875 --> 00:38:35,007 with Jeffrey Epstein. 689 00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:38,793 At that particular time, 690 00:38:38,794 --> 00:38:41,840 Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein 691 00:38:41,841 --> 00:38:43,842 met in London 692 00:38:43,843 --> 00:38:47,367 at the introduction by Robert Maxwell. 693 00:38:49,152 --> 00:38:54,287 I mean, no one knew who he was at the time, 694 00:38:54,288 --> 00:38:57,682 but in England, they knew who she was. 695 00:38:57,683 --> 00:39:00,511 Epstein appreciated that she gave him 696 00:39:00,512 --> 00:39:04,297 a veneer of respectability and introduced him 697 00:39:04,298 --> 00:39:09,258 to the upper echelons of English society. 698 00:39:09,259 --> 00:39:12,349 I think she chose someone very like her father, 699 00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:14,786 but then, equally, it makes you wonder 700 00:39:14,787 --> 00:39:17,223 how much, their conversations in the early days, 701 00:39:17,224 --> 00:39:19,834 he might've been figuring out how her father operated 702 00:39:19,835 --> 00:39:23,447 and doing many of the same tricks back. 703 00:39:25,188 --> 00:39:28,452 It looked like they were a couple. 704 00:39:28,453 --> 00:39:31,324 At least, she thought they were a couple. 705 00:39:32,805 --> 00:39:36,198 But Jeffrey Epstein was a multiple philanderer. 706 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:40,551 I saw him in London with other women, as well. 707 00:39:40,552 --> 00:39:44,816 And Jeffrey Epstein used Ghislaine Maxwell 708 00:39:44,817 --> 00:39:49,777 to get further into Robert Maxwell's empire. 709 00:39:49,778 --> 00:39:52,693 And Robert was busy trying to build up his empire. 710 00:39:52,694 --> 00:39:54,391 He wanted everything. 711 00:39:54,392 --> 00:39:57,568 He wanted to be the biggest, the best. It was unstoppable. 712 00:40:00,354 --> 00:40:02,137 He always looked for ways in which 713 00:40:02,138 --> 00:40:06,533 assets would help him build up not only his fortune, 714 00:40:06,534 --> 00:40:09,318 but also his profile and personality. 715 00:40:11,278 --> 00:40:14,193 And once Rupert Murdoch had the "New York Post," 716 00:40:14,194 --> 00:40:16,413 he became quite famous in America, 717 00:40:16,414 --> 00:40:18,589 and Maxwell wanted to do the same. 718 00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:20,504 He wanted to rival Murdoch 719 00:40:20,505 --> 00:40:23,376 in the most important city in the world, New York, 720 00:40:23,377 --> 00:40:25,422 and buying the "New York Daily News" 721 00:40:25,423 --> 00:40:28,033 gave him that chance. 722 00:40:28,034 --> 00:40:30,209 Mr. Maxwell comes to town. 723 00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:33,647 Maxwell is Robert Maxwell, a flamboyant British press lord, 724 00:40:33,648 --> 00:40:36,563 and the reason he's come is to take over the "Daily News." 725 00:40:36,564 --> 00:40:38,783 He said he bought it for the challenge 726 00:40:38,784 --> 00:40:41,307 of turning a loser into a winner. 727 00:40:43,223 --> 00:40:46,486 In the context of the "New York Daily News" takeover, 728 00:40:46,487 --> 00:40:48,619 the advanced guard, as it were, 729 00:40:48,620 --> 00:40:52,666 was for Robert Maxwell to send Ghislaine. 730 00:40:52,667 --> 00:40:56,365 He uses her, sends her out first to charm people. 731 00:40:56,366 --> 00:40:57,976 And she railed against that. 732 00:40:57,977 --> 00:40:59,717 "Well, you know, Kevin's got a proper job. 733 00:40:59,718 --> 00:41:04,112 Ian's got a proper job. Why can't I have a proper job?" 734 00:41:04,113 --> 00:41:06,593 I ran into her at a party, and she told me 735 00:41:06,594 --> 00:41:08,769 that she was working for her father, 736 00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:12,207 and it seemed like she was a kind of connecter 737 00:41:12,208 --> 00:41:13,644 for her father 738 00:41:13,645 --> 00:41:17,169 of people with power and influence in the city 739 00:41:17,170 --> 00:41:19,780 who it would be useful for him to know. 740 00:41:19,781 --> 00:41:24,829 She would be somebody who could be used in social terms. 741 00:41:24,830 --> 00:41:28,093 It's like using the woman that's closest to you 742 00:41:28,094 --> 00:41:30,443 for your own ends. 743 00:41:30,444 --> 00:41:34,752 And he preferred to have her on his arm than he did Betty. 744 00:41:37,146 --> 00:41:39,060 He pulls away from Betty, 745 00:41:39,061 --> 00:41:41,541 and now Ghislaine is his right-hand person 746 00:41:41,542 --> 00:41:43,674 and is a very good companion. 747 00:41:43,675 --> 00:41:46,590 She fits that role very well for him. 748 00:41:46,591 --> 00:41:49,070 You get the sense that, in psychological terms, 749 00:41:49,071 --> 00:41:51,029 that she was the Oedipal winner. 750 00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:55,642 She was the most important figure in his life. 751 00:41:55,643 --> 00:41:59,516 I think it's really telling that he named his boat after her. 752 00:42:01,867 --> 00:42:05,130 From Ghislaine's point of view, buying the "Daily News" 753 00:42:05,131 --> 00:42:08,437 was infinitely more important than for Robert Maxwell. 754 00:42:08,438 --> 00:42:11,092 He already had access to the White House. 755 00:42:11,093 --> 00:42:13,312 He already had access to all sorts of-- 756 00:42:13,313 --> 00:42:15,444 all the bankers and the rest. 757 00:42:15,445 --> 00:42:18,404 But Ghislaine was able to use that advantage 758 00:42:18,405 --> 00:42:20,319 to her own success. 759 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,409 She could then use that newspaper to promote herself 760 00:42:23,410 --> 00:42:25,237 in the city and meet everybody. 761 00:42:25,238 --> 00:42:27,456 She was the tycoon's daughter. 762 00:42:28,894 --> 00:42:30,851 That's when her world fell apart. 763 00:42:30,852 --> 00:42:33,724 That's when everything she thought she could rely on-- 764 00:42:33,725 --> 00:42:36,770 her structure, her security, her protection-- 765 00:42:36,771 --> 00:42:38,555 absolutely fell apart. 766 00:42:38,556 --> 00:42:42,037 You know, the bottom fell out of her world. 767 00:43:02,492 --> 00:43:05,190 The Board of Mirror Group Newspapers 768 00:43:05,191 --> 00:43:06,670 announces with deep regret 769 00:43:06,671 --> 00:43:09,629 that Robert Maxwell is missing at sea, 770 00:43:09,630 --> 00:43:11,065 feared lost overboard 771 00:43:11,066 --> 00:43:13,502 from his motor yacht, the Lady Ghislaine. 772 00:43:16,028 --> 00:43:18,682 The gathering of Robert Maxwell's family 773 00:43:18,683 --> 00:43:20,640 was completed with the arrival 774 00:43:20,641 --> 00:43:24,470 of the daughter after whom he had named his fateful yacht. 775 00:43:26,691 --> 00:43:31,999 For Ghislaine, that was the most seismic event of her life. 776 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,611 His body was found floating in the water. 777 00:43:34,612 --> 00:43:36,221 There were three postmortems, 778 00:43:36,222 --> 00:43:39,180 and no one could agree on what the cause of death was, 779 00:43:39,181 --> 00:43:40,486 so there's a lot of conspiracy 780 00:43:40,487 --> 00:43:42,749 about the circumstances of his death. 781 00:43:42,750 --> 00:43:44,446 He committed suicide... 782 00:43:44,447 --> 00:43:48,363 he was rubbed out by assassins from a two-man submarine... 783 00:43:48,364 --> 00:43:51,889 poisoning, strangling, even overwork. 784 00:44:19,961 --> 00:44:23,137 Suddenly, Ghislaine is dealing with the media. 785 00:44:23,138 --> 00:44:26,053 I mean, again, that shows Ghislaine's status 786 00:44:26,054 --> 00:44:27,925 in the family pecking order, 787 00:44:27,926 --> 00:44:29,709 that she was very much like 788 00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:31,668 the sort of wife and heir apparent. 789 00:44:31,669 --> 00:44:35,889 She is like the bereaved widow going to see what had happened. 790 00:44:39,024 --> 00:44:41,678 There were reports that she arrived on the boat 791 00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:43,680 and had personal documents 792 00:44:43,681 --> 00:44:45,594 and important documents shredded. 793 00:44:45,595 --> 00:44:47,466 ...thankful to many... 794 00:44:47,467 --> 00:44:50,251 A very reliable "Daily Mirror" reporter 795 00:44:50,252 --> 00:44:54,603 said that he saw Ghislaine shredding documents. 796 00:44:54,604 --> 00:44:57,302 That shows that she would've had quite an involvement 797 00:44:57,303 --> 00:45:00,653 with the business, to have known what documents to shred. 798 00:45:03,048 --> 00:45:07,616 I want also to thank the press... 799 00:45:07,617 --> 00:45:09,706 So, you have the public face, 800 00:45:09,707 --> 00:45:13,927 in which she's handling the press and inquiries very well, 801 00:45:13,928 --> 00:45:17,104 and then you have the private shredding of documents. 802 00:45:17,105 --> 00:45:18,802 This was a loyal daughter 803 00:45:18,803 --> 00:45:23,937 ensuring that whatever fate her father had befallen, 804 00:45:23,938 --> 00:45:27,986 she wasn't willing to let light in on the darkness. 805 00:45:31,729 --> 00:45:35,166 Undoubtedly, they didn't want other people to know 806 00:45:35,167 --> 00:45:39,953 what the papers revealed about Maxwell's business. 807 00:45:39,954 --> 00:45:42,260 Miss Maxwell, may we ask you something? 808 00:45:42,261 --> 00:45:45,872 On behalf of the family, about what conclusions 809 00:45:45,873 --> 00:45:49,093 the family feel about what's happened on this boat? 810 00:45:49,094 --> 00:45:51,878 Well, all-- all these things will be revealed, so just-- 811 00:45:51,879 --> 00:45:55,099 That was the statement. Thank you very much. 812 00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:56,796 Thank you. 813 00:45:56,797 --> 00:45:58,755 There was suspicion and rumors 814 00:45:58,756 --> 00:46:01,279 around Robert Maxwell's business dealings. 815 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:02,889 A lot of people hated him. 816 00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:05,457 He would have picked up a lot of enemies along the way. 817 00:46:05,458 --> 00:46:07,415 You know, in an interview Ghislaine gave 818 00:46:07,416 --> 00:46:09,026 about seven years after his death, 819 00:46:09,027 --> 00:46:11,202 she said she thought it was murder. 820 00:46:11,203 --> 00:46:15,597 But there's never been any evidence to back that up. 821 00:46:15,598 --> 00:46:18,340 What do you feel? What happened to him? 822 00:46:21,213 --> 00:46:23,257 You'll never know, so... 823 00:46:23,258 --> 00:46:27,131 You'll never be 100% sure of exactly what took place. 824 00:46:27,132 --> 00:46:32,005 The only thing I'm sure of is that he did not commit suicide. 825 00:46:32,006 --> 00:46:34,486 Would you agree with somebody that he might commit suicide? 826 00:46:34,487 --> 00:46:36,357 Because most of the people say he would. 827 00:46:36,358 --> 00:46:39,404 Never. Never. 828 00:46:39,405 --> 00:46:41,580 It's never entered my mind. 829 00:46:41,581 --> 00:46:44,322 He wasn't suicidal at all? 830 00:46:44,323 --> 00:46:47,151 No. It is not possible. 831 00:46:47,152 --> 00:46:48,892 He would never have done that. - Mm-hmm. 832 00:46:48,893 --> 00:46:53,592 He's a fighter. He's a totally born fighter. 833 00:46:53,593 --> 00:46:55,246 No way. 834 00:47:16,355 --> 00:47:18,704 Robert Maxwell, who paid little attention 835 00:47:18,705 --> 00:47:22,012 to his Jewish origins until near the end of his life, 836 00:47:22,013 --> 00:47:23,578 asked to be buried in Jerusalem, 837 00:47:23,579 --> 00:47:25,754 and the entire Israeli establishment 838 00:47:25,755 --> 00:47:27,234 came to pay tribute. 839 00:47:27,235 --> 00:47:30,629 Prime Minister Shamir, Defense Minister Arens, 840 00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:33,806 Housing Minister Sharon. 841 00:47:33,807 --> 00:47:38,463 By 1991, Robert Maxwell was a major personality in Israel. 842 00:47:38,464 --> 00:47:41,640 He was very close to the Israeli government. 843 00:47:41,641 --> 00:47:44,556 He rediscovered his Jewish roots, 844 00:47:44,557 --> 00:47:46,645 and he felt very at home there. 845 00:47:48,735 --> 00:47:53,260 So it was natural for them to want to bury him 846 00:47:53,261 --> 00:47:56,220 in the most sacred place in Jerusalem. 847 00:48:07,885 --> 00:48:11,844 After his death, the pilot of the personal jet told me 848 00:48:11,845 --> 00:48:15,369 that on the way back as they left Jerusalem 849 00:48:15,370 --> 00:48:16,936 and flew back to England, 850 00:48:16,937 --> 00:48:20,070 some of them were unbelievably relieved and happy. 851 00:48:20,071 --> 00:48:22,899 Was a brief moment of freedom for them. 852 00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:26,293 They thought, "Finally we've got control of our own lives." 853 00:48:26,294 --> 00:48:28,295 Of course they were mistaken. 854 00:48:28,296 --> 00:48:30,776 The mystery of Robert Maxwell multiplied today 855 00:48:30,777 --> 00:48:33,170 with the collapse of his publishing empire. 856 00:48:33,171 --> 00:48:37,304 His crumbling empire is missing $1.2 billion. 857 00:48:37,305 --> 00:48:38,740 That's billion. 858 00:48:38,741 --> 00:48:41,004 Employees of the "Mirror" newspapers learned 859 00:48:41,005 --> 00:48:43,093 that more than a billion dollars 860 00:48:43,094 --> 00:48:46,052 had been siphoned off from their pension fund. 861 00:48:48,795 --> 00:48:50,230 When Robert Maxwell died 862 00:48:50,231 --> 00:48:53,146 and the financial mismanagement of Mirror Group 863 00:48:53,147 --> 00:48:56,323 became apparent, it became one of the biggest stories 864 00:48:56,324 --> 00:48:59,326 in British modern history. 865 00:48:59,327 --> 00:49:01,502 British newspapers are now having a field day 866 00:49:01,503 --> 00:49:02,895 reporting the scandal. 867 00:49:02,896 --> 00:49:04,810 In the lead, Maxwell's own "Daily Mirror" 868 00:49:04,811 --> 00:49:06,594 desperately trying to solve the mystery 869 00:49:06,595 --> 00:49:09,684 of what its publisher did with the money. 870 00:49:09,685 --> 00:49:11,773 He had taken 400 million pounds 871 00:49:11,774 --> 00:49:15,516 from the pensioners at the Mirror Group. 872 00:49:15,517 --> 00:49:17,823 Maxwell stole not just the pension fund, 873 00:49:17,824 --> 00:49:19,956 but he stole lots of other companies'. 874 00:49:19,957 --> 00:49:24,177 His total takings were at least 2 billion pounds in 1991, 875 00:49:24,178 --> 00:49:27,746 so, in current terms, they talk of a fraud 876 00:49:27,747 --> 00:49:31,184 of at least 5 to 10 billion pound sterling. 877 00:49:31,185 --> 00:49:36,320 And the Maxwell name was dirt and synonymous with fraud. 878 00:49:36,321 --> 00:49:38,539 For Ivy Needham, this is one memory 879 00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:40,150 she would rather not have-- 880 00:49:40,151 --> 00:49:43,196 her former boss, Robert Maxwell, and family. 881 00:49:43,197 --> 00:49:44,937 Robert Maxwell robbed us. 882 00:49:44,938 --> 00:49:46,983 He took our bank books, took the money out, 883 00:49:46,984 --> 00:49:48,854 and that was it. 884 00:49:50,509 --> 00:49:52,727 At the time, there were accusations 885 00:49:52,728 --> 00:49:56,209 that Ghislaine's brothers were somehow involved 886 00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:59,343 with the financial malfeasance because they were 887 00:49:59,344 --> 00:50:01,910 Robert Maxwell's lieutenants in the business, 888 00:50:01,911 --> 00:50:07,133 and it was unclear at that point whether Ghislaine knew of it 889 00:50:07,134 --> 00:50:09,396 or had been involved in any way. 890 00:50:09,397 --> 00:50:12,573 But it was a highly stressful situation 891 00:50:12,574 --> 00:50:14,140 for Ghislaine. 892 00:50:14,141 --> 00:50:18,536 Kevin and Ian Maxwell were targeted by the police. 893 00:50:20,191 --> 00:50:22,975 - I am about to call the police. - We are the police. 894 00:50:22,976 --> 00:50:25,238 Will you open the door, please? Thank you. 895 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,111 Within minutes, more police arrived, 896 00:50:28,112 --> 00:50:29,764 and then Kevin Maxwell appeared, 897 00:50:29,765 --> 00:50:32,724 flanked by officers from the City of London police. 898 00:50:32,725 --> 00:50:34,291 - Morning, Kevin. - Morning. 899 00:50:34,292 --> 00:50:37,424 The Maxwell family became completely 900 00:50:37,425 --> 00:50:39,992 ostracized and vilified, 901 00:50:39,993 --> 00:50:42,038 totally persona non grata. 902 00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:45,215 Maxwell's sons handed over their bankrupt inheritance today 903 00:50:45,216 --> 00:50:48,522 to administrators who will sell off the empire. 904 00:50:48,523 --> 00:50:50,481 Clearly we didn't know everything, 905 00:50:50,482 --> 00:50:53,962 and clearly he had a, uh... 906 00:50:53,963 --> 00:50:56,487 style of business 907 00:50:56,488 --> 00:50:58,880 where probably he ran on need-to-know 908 00:50:58,881 --> 00:51:02,623 as opposed to sharing information all the time. 909 00:51:02,624 --> 00:51:06,192 A large part of the scandal is what the press has made of it. 910 00:51:06,193 --> 00:51:10,022 So stupid. It has nothing to do with the man. 911 00:51:10,023 --> 00:51:12,111 The man was a totally exceptional man. 912 00:51:12,112 --> 00:51:15,201 Most people who say the most appalling things about him 913 00:51:15,202 --> 00:51:16,724 have never met him in their life. 914 00:51:16,725 --> 00:51:19,336 They don't know who they're talking about. 915 00:51:19,337 --> 00:51:23,818 It was bizarre to hear her talking about her late husband. 916 00:51:23,819 --> 00:51:26,734 She said, "He was such a wonderful husband, 917 00:51:26,735 --> 00:51:30,608 such a wonderful father," which seemed very different 918 00:51:30,609 --> 00:51:34,307 from all the reports we'd been reading in the papers. 919 00:51:37,006 --> 00:51:40,618 It must have been a devastating shock to Ghislaine. 920 00:51:40,619 --> 00:51:43,621 One moment, she's at the very top of the society, 921 00:51:43,622 --> 00:51:46,754 and the next moment, the Maxwell name is mud. 922 00:51:46,755 --> 00:51:49,105 You don't feel that she retreated 923 00:51:49,106 --> 00:51:52,543 to the bosom of her family, to her siblings, to her mother, 924 00:51:52,544 --> 00:51:55,023 who was still alive, to support her. 925 00:51:55,024 --> 00:51:57,678 It's like almost she was orphaned from that moment, 926 00:51:57,679 --> 00:51:59,376 because she didn't have 927 00:51:59,377 --> 00:52:02,379 the all-powerful daddy watching her back. 928 00:52:05,426 --> 00:52:07,688 The rug was pulled from underneath her, 929 00:52:07,689 --> 00:52:10,387 and she's wondering, "How am I going to stand up? 930 00:52:10,388 --> 00:52:12,867 How am I going to get through life?" 931 00:52:12,868 --> 00:52:16,306 Survival means many different things to different people. 932 00:52:16,307 --> 00:52:19,439 Survival in my case means getting up in the morning 933 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,876 and figuring out a new life. 934 00:52:21,877 --> 00:52:23,182 Life is sad. 935 00:52:23,183 --> 00:52:25,271 It's always very sad when you lose a parent, 936 00:52:25,272 --> 00:52:28,927 but you have to go on. 937 00:52:28,928 --> 00:52:31,147 Where better to go than a place 938 00:52:31,148 --> 00:52:33,932 where you're not really suffering from your name 939 00:52:33,933 --> 00:52:38,023 in the same way that a Maxwell would suffer back in Britain? 940 00:52:38,024 --> 00:52:41,418 And so she invents Ghislaine Maxwell, socialite, 941 00:52:41,419 --> 00:52:43,768 and heads off to New York. 942 00:52:48,643 --> 00:52:51,819 She had this tremendous survival instinct, 943 00:52:51,820 --> 00:52:54,387 which clearly kicked in, and she went to New York, 944 00:52:54,388 --> 00:52:59,000 where she set her sights on finding a daddy replacement. 945 00:52:59,001 --> 00:53:03,222 And that is a crucial moment in why we then see her 946 00:53:03,223 --> 00:53:06,965 get involved to the degree that she did with Epstein. 947 00:53:06,966 --> 00:53:09,228 I think we'd all have to conclude 948 00:53:09,229 --> 00:53:13,232 that, sadly, she sold her soul to the devil. 949 00:53:13,233 --> 00:53:15,930 Don't you feel insecure, scared for the future? 950 00:53:15,931 --> 00:53:18,933 No, I'm lucky. I get to start again. 951 00:53:18,934 --> 00:53:22,937 I'm extremely sad that my father is no longer here 952 00:53:22,938 --> 00:53:26,114 and for all the difficult times 953 00:53:26,115 --> 00:53:29,074 for everybody that's been involved, 954 00:53:29,075 --> 00:53:31,555 but I don't feel in any way 955 00:53:31,556 --> 00:53:35,167 smaller or lesser than what I was before. 956 00:53:35,168 --> 00:53:36,777 I'm me.